A new 13-year reanalysis of a Neanderthal skeleton discovered in northern Iraq has given credence to the theory that ancient relatives of modern humans had burial rituals. The skeleton, found in the Kurdistan region, is known for its fossils of extinct Neanderthal cousins. Some archaeologists have long argued that Neandertal sites preserve evidence of burials, a practice considered a key feature of modern human behavior. However, a new study has suggested that Neanderthals did not hold burial rituals as previously thought.
Over recent decades, the scientific community has learned that Neanderthals were far more culturally advanced than many first realized, and some studies suggest that they held burial rituals for their dead. A 50,000-year-old Neanderthal skeleton discovered in a cave in France was intentionally buried. Archaeologist Chris Hunt has published new evidence to suggest that Neanderthal man did indeed bury their dead.
The controversy over mortuary ritual in hominins began with the Neanderthals, now known as the species Homo neanderthalensis. New evidence points to Neanderthal burial rituals, and researchers have found “increasing evidence that Neanderthals did not ritually” bury their dead. If burial did not occur, why are some Neanderthals likely to have become buried?
Dozens of buried Neandertal skeletons have been discovered in Eurasia, leading some scientists to deduce that, like us, Neandertals buried their dead. The discovery of a new Neanderthal skeleton in Iraq has given credence to the theory that ancient relatives of modern humans had burial rituals.
📹 The Neandertal Burial That Taught Us About Humanity
If we can see ourselves in the way our ancient cousins dealt with death…what else could we have in common? Thanks to Julio …
Did Neanderthals bury infants?
A well-preserved Neanderthal infant burial was discovered in 1993 in the Dederiyeh Cave, Syria. The infant, about two years old, was found in the Mousterian deposit, with its position on the back, extended arms, and flexed legs, indicating an intentional burial. The study of the evolution and dispersal of modern Homo sapiens has become a center of interest in palaeoanthropology in the Levant. Evidence from Qafzeh J and Kebara2 caves is of major importance due to their clear stratigraphie associations between hominid fossils, well-defined lithic industries, and well-organized dating methods.
One of the most controversial subjects among palaeoanthropologists is the interpretation of the chronological and phylogenetic relationship between Neanderthals (Kebara type) and early modern humans (Qafzeh type) in the Levantine Mousterian contexts. Three different hypotheses have been discussed.
What did the Neanderthals use to bury along with the dead bodies?
Neanderthals were known to intentionally bury their dead and occasionally mark their graves with offerings, a unique practice not seen in other primates or earlier human species. Evidence of this sophisticated and symbolic behavior can be found in various locations, including footprints from Kenya, Laetoli, Engare Sero, Majuangou, China, Bose, China, Oldowan Tools, Olduvai Chopper, stone tools, and burin from Laugerie Haute and Basse, Dordogne, France.
Did Neanderthals breed with humans?
Neandertals and anatomically modern humans interbred for over 30, 000 years after human migration out of Africa. The proportion of Neandertal ancestry is approximately 12-20 higher in East Asian individuals compared to European individuals. This observation was initially interpreted as evidence of a single period of admixture, occurring shortly after the out-of-Africa bottleneck. However, subsequent research showed that Neandertal ancestry is higher by about 12-20 in modern East Asian individuals compared to modern European individuals.
Neandertals occupied a vast area of Asia and Europe at the time AMH dispersed outside of Africa (~75, 000 BP) and later Europe and Asia (~47–55, 000 BP). The breakdown of Neandertal segments in modern human genomes indicates a time-frame for admixture of 50, 000–60, 000 BP prior to the diversification of East Asian and European lineages. The genome of Ust’-Ishim, an ancient individual of equidistant relation to modern East Asians and Europeans, has similar levels of Neandertal ancestry as modern Eurasians but found in longer haplotypes, consistent with an admixture episode occurring around 52, 000–58, 000 BP.
There is extensive debate surrounding the observation of increased Neandertal ancestry in East Asians, given the extensive support for a single, shared admixture among Eurasians. By compiling the joint fragment frequency spectrum (FFS) of European and East Asian Neandertal fragments and comparing it to analytical theory and data simulated under various models of admixture, the study suggests more long-term, complex interaction between humans and Neandertals than previously appreciated.
Did Neanderthals smell?
A study conducted in a laboratory revealed that Neanderthals exhibited a sensitivity to green floral scents that was nearly three times lower than that observed in modern humans.
Did cavemen have funerals?
Homo naledi, ancient humans, carried the dead into cave chambers and created a meaningful funeral practice similar to modern ceremonies. Professor Penny Spikins from the University of York’s Department of Archaeology explains that these individuals had brains similar to chimpanzees and long arms with curved fingers. Previously, it was assumed that complex emotional responses, seen in funeral practices, were exclusive to large-brained ancestors. However, it was discovered that Homo naledi developed social and emotional parts of their brains hundreds of thousands of years before humans.
Have evidence that Neandertals intentionally buried their dead?
Around 60, 000 years ago, Neandertals dug a grave in a limestone cave in central France, similar to how we do today. This discovery, based on the famous La Chapelle-aux-Saints Neandertal skeleton, has significant implications for understanding the behavior and cognitive capacity of our closest evolutionary relatives. Some archaeologists argue that Neandertal sites preserve evidence of burials, a practice considered a key feature of modern human behavior.
However, critics argue that these sites were excavated using outdated techniques that obscured the facts. The discovery has important implications for understanding the behavior and cognitive capacity of our closest evolutionary relatives.
Which race has the most Neanderthal DNA?
A new study suggests that humans with ancestry outside Africa have a small amount of Neanderthal genes, with people with East Asian ancestry having 8-24 more genes than those of European ancestry. This is a paradox, as Neanderthals lived in Europe. The study suggests that a wave of human migration from Africa before 40, 000 years ago brought Homo sapiens into contact with their Homo neanderthalensis cousins, leading to interbreeding.
A later wave of Homo sapiens migrating about 10, 000 years ago diluted Neanderthal genes in Europe only, as early farmers with minimal Neanderthal ancestry from the Middle East and southwestern Asia mixed with local hunter-gatherers, bringing a more H. sapiens-flavored genome to the region. The Homo sapiens who settled East Asia around 60, 000 to 70, 000 years ago did not undergo this dilution from newcomers.
Could a Neanderthal and a human have a baby?
Interbreeding between Neanderthal males and human females could have produced fertile offspring, but not between Neanderthal females and modern human males, indicating that Neanderthal mtDNA could not be passed down. Footprints from various locations, such as Koobi Fora, Kenya, Laetoli Footprint Trails, Engare Sero, Tanzania, and Majuangou, China, show various tools and tools, including hammerstone, handaxes, and stone tools.
Did the Neanderthals bury their dead?
A substantial body of evidence indicates that Neanderthals engaged in the ritual burial of their deceased. The skeletal remains of these individuals often display a range of distinctive features, including the presence of floral offerings, burial pits, goat horn circles, and bear cults. These observations suggest that Neanderthals had a distinct burial practice.
What types of burial rituals did Neanderthals engage in?
Four individuals were found in a unique assemblage with ancient pollen clumped in the sediment around one of the bodies, suggesting Neanderthal burial rites. Estimates suggest that there may have been around 20, 000 Neanderthals at any one time, living in dispersed small clans yet staying connected across the landscape. Some of this connection may have been locations of cultural significance, such as Shanidar Cave, where Neanderthals returned and placed bodies in the same spot.
The time between deaths is a mystery, with Solecki proposing that some of the Shanidar Neanderthals were killed simultaneously by rockfall. However, determining whether the bodies were separated by weeks, decades, or centuries is a major challenge for the new research. Obtaining scientific evidence for this is one of the hardest nuts to crack.
Why are Neanderthals not considered human?
Modern humans can be distinguished from Neanderthals by their braincase and pelvic shape, which exhibit a longer, lower skull and wider pelvis. The three tiny bones of the middle ear, vital for hearing, can also be distinguished from Neanderthals with careful measurement. The shape differences in ear bones are more marked than those that distinguish our closest living relatives, chimpanzees and gorillas.
Pronounced differences in the braincase, ear bones, and pelvis can still be recognized in fossils of Neanderthals and modern humans from 100, 000 years ago, suggesting a separate evolutionary history that is good for differentiating H. neanderthalensis from H. sapiens.
📹 The Shocking Truth Behind Neanderthal Funeral Rituals
Unraveling the Mysterious Neanderthal Death Rites with an Ancient Flower Burial Site Unraveling the Mystery of Neanderthal …
I used to know someone who lived on old farmland (no longer worked) and kept a small menagerie: a few donkeys, dogs, cats, and other animals who mostly lived in the barn. She said that when one of the donkeys died, the vet encouraged her to leave the donkey’s body out for a bit. All the other animals came by as a group and nudged at the dead animal, then stood around for a while. It made me think that recognizing a member of one’s living group has died is a very basic thing across many species. I know elephants have funerals.
Let’s also think on corvids. Crows and ravens, primarily. They do understand death. They seem to understand some bits of symbolism. My own example: Tikka, a magpie that adopted me, stayed with me for two years. Through a messy breakup, and moving three times. I never forced him. I only explained where I was going. And he’d follow me! This past summer, he died. Looked like he’d been in a fight and succumbed to his injuries. The day he died, he’d come to the backyard of the house my friends and I are renting. All day, there was a large gathering of mixed crows and ravens, chasing away cats, other birds, and my roommates from something. When I got home from work, I went to go talk to the corvids… they all took off, revealing that they had been guarding Tikka’s body. I buried him, and left a few shiny coins with him. Just… a few things I knew he liked. The next day, there were twigs and a couple of dandelions on the little grave. Deliberately placed there, and not by me. I can only guess these were from Tikka’s bird-friends. They’d seen me bury him, and add a few small things that held meaning. They may have picked those flowers and twigs by luck, but they were not plants in our yard. They had to bring those items from somewhere else, and place them deliberately on Tikka’s grave
It seems harder to doubt that they were capable of abstract thought than it is to believe it, imo. They’re so closely related to us, and even our closest current relatives in creatures like chimps and bonobos aren’t far off from all this, capable of creating art for no other reason than creating it, mourning death, expressing love for the sake of it, etc. – I don’t see how Neanderthals and other similar hominids would be incapable of at LEAST that. Considering we interbred and interacted with them regularly enough that it exists in our DNA to this day for many, I think that chances that they weren’t extremely similar to us are incredibly slim. We likely shared many practices – in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if some of our modern day habits stem from things we developed in those ancient times right alongside other hominids.
The transition from our earlier ancestors to modern day humans is a subject that has fascinated me ever since I came to understand that there were ancestors of ours that were of a different species. We carry Neanderthal DNA, so in a way, they never died out. There is something almost magical about that, I feel.
Something which is often overlooked is that burial in the ground is often difficult. The Australian Aborigines more often than not wrapped their dead in bark and placed them in trees. The reason is that their digging sticks were really only useful for digging up roots and tubers, not excavating graves, so burials were only used where the soil was soft and sandy. And what sort of soil existed in the caves referred to in this clip?
Elephants appear to “mourn” their dead and revisit bones. Wolves and dolphins appear to show agitation and “sadness” over the loss of group mates. Rescue dogs become depressed when they find too many dead people. Is it so far fetched that these hominids would mourn their dead and care for their bodies afterwards?
I’m inclined to think that, “funeral” is a better word than “burial” for what is being described here, in several respects. It seems to be a much better description for a symbolism-laden, ritualized burial ceremony like the one being hypothesized: a Neanderthal FUNERAL. P.S. There is no juicier “Stegosaurus tale” than the invention of the Thagomizer.
I can’t understand why there would even be doubt that these earlier people would have emotional attachment with each other and be profoundly affected by their death, just as we do. Why would they be any different? Does anyone know what apes do when one of their community dies? Do they just let them rot while walking around the scene of horror? Or do they do anything different than what they usually do? I ask because I don’t actually know what they do. But I assume that in the presence of one of their dead, that their behavior would likely change. And if it does change, it is likely an indication of some kind of emotional connection.
The idea that a rock fall killed them or that rodents deposited flowers is just as circumstantial. Given that we have art and jewellery most likely associated with Neanderthals and the fact that we bred with them surely indicates that they were very similar to us. Who knows maybe even more intelligent.
I believe that all mammals like Felines, canines, humans, apes, elephants, dolphins, etc. are all capable of communicating these ideas. Elephants and apes already have evidence in the wild of having rituals for their dead, and who knows what possible ways other animals may consider their fallen brethren. I know for certain cats and dogs can mourn and miss people, understand when they pass away, and are in some ways able to communicate their grief to their owners. For example, when my cat Skittles’ brother Bo died, she was very depressed for months afterwards. She would constantly cuddle his toys and sit in the spot they would always cuddle together, crying. It was very sad to see her mourning, but comforting to know we all were mourning together. Humans are not the only conscious being on this planet – I believe every single animal knows what’s happening around them and can form memories, connections, thoughts, feelings, and emotions. We plainly see it in our every day lives.
The thing that convinces me that they were probably intelligent, emotional, symbolic beings is that we bred with them enough to have a lasting impact on our DNA. I can’t imagine us doing this if they were just dumb animals because so many of our choosing of a mate involves rituals and symbolism. But we await concrete evidence anyway. 🤞
Maybe this is sentimentality speaking, but I’m inclined to believe they did bury their dead with a particular kind of meaning attached to it. I think it’s interesting there seems to be implications that sites would be revisited at point after burial, so they may have had some concept of “speaking” with those that have passed on.
I remember an article on cup marks where there was a slab with cup marks above a skeleton of a neanderthal child. Edit: it was about the La Ferassie site ” Over its body lay three magnificent flinttools: one point and two scrapers. The grave was partially covered by a triangular limestoneslab, showing on its lower surface a sort of cup mark surrounded by small cup marks ingroups of two or four (Bergounioux,1958; Heim,1984).” (from the chapter on evidence of neandertal spiritual practices by Wendorf, Close, Schild. Africa in the period of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and contemporaries, p 329).
Once upon a time there was a very handsome Stegosaurus prince who lived in the lush, green forests of the prehistoric world. He was the envy of all the other dinosaurs and was admired by all the creatures that lived in the forest. The prince was known for his bravery, his quick wit, and his kind heart. One day, the prince met a T-Rex who was unlike any he had ever encountered before. This T-Rex was a little rough around the edges, but the prince was drawn to their strength and confidence. The T-Rex was intrigued by the prince as well and the two soon became inseparable. Soon, they started sneaking away from the watchful eyes of the other dinosaurs to be alone together, sharing sweet moments and discussing their feelings. But their love was not welcomed by all. Many of the creatures in the forest disapproved of the prince’s relationship with the T-Rex, and rumors began to spread about their strange alliance. The prince and the T-Rex were soon faced with a difficult decision: to follow their hearts and stay together, or to listen to the judgment of others and go their separate ways. Eventually, the prince and the T-Rex decided to leave the forest and start a new life together, away from the unfounded mistrust of the other creatures. They traveled to a faraway land, where they could be themselves and love who they wanted without fear of judgment. As they settled into their new home, the prince and the T-Rex discovered that they were not alone. There were other dinosaurs there who were also in love with creatures of a different species, and they had formed a community of love and acceptance.
I’m pretty sure the main limitation to burials is the ability to efficiently dig a hole. Kinda requiring a specific tool, because if it’ll take all day you’d find another way. After all eating is still a priority. So given what we know about other hominids they probably all had ritual behaviors around death. But probably not all burials. After all even we do pyres and sea burials
In The Clan of the Cave Bear, Jean M Auel speculated that the flowers and plants put in the grave with Shanidar 4 may have been grave goods for the group’s medicine woman to use in the spirit world. Many of the plants do have medicinal value. Also it’s no secret that the clan that adopts Ayla in the novel are based on the Shanidar Neanderthal clan.
Once upon a time there was very handsome Stegosaurus prince. In order to become the king a the Late Jurassic forest, the Stegosaurus prince had to defeat the Angry Allosaurus who kept eating all of his potential brides. A battle of epic proportions ensued as the Stegosaurus prince came face to face with the angry Allosaurus. The Allosaurus was strong and cunning but the stegosaurus was super duper handsome! Using his charming appearance, the Stegosaurus prince distracted the Allosaurus long enough for him to swing his mighty tail into the theropods face. With the Angry Allosaurus defeated, the Stegosaurus prince finally became king of the Jurassic and spend the rest of his days with his new queen chewing on cycads and rolling in mud. The end!
We know Neanderthals and Homo sapiens intermingled, so I would reason that the practice, if not developed independently by Neanderthals, could have been adopted from Homo sapiens. I honestly can’t fully understand why people would assume Neanderthals are inherently less than us. It seems like nothing more than a holdover of regressive sapiens-centrism.
I get the feeling that if one were to encounter a living Neanderthal, you’d barely be able to notice. If you dressed one in modern clothing and set them loose, they’d simply look like a kinda short, kinda hairier human, with very similar abilities. Not different enough for anyone to take note of without close inspection.
This begs the question: at what point does a burial site turn into an archaeological dig site? Is it appropriate to uncover the bodies once the tombstone or other marking has naturally disappeared for whatever reason? Is it appropriate to uncover the bodies once all who mourned them have also passed? Or is it strictly time-gated? Is it fine once the cadaver has fossilized? I guess it’s just a matter of semantics.
This flower burial inspired two burials in one of my favorite books. The author Jean M Auel is friends with archeologists and spent a lot of time learning from them before she wrote her book Clan of the Cave Bear. The book was the first to be labeled as historical fiction. I love that she tried so hard to get all the historical elements and survival elements as right as possible for the level of knowledge available at the time.
This article was uploaded the day after my grandfather died and we did a burial for him so it seems that our ancestors or close relatives had a sense of mourning. I do appreciate that Neanderthals were at least getting a grasp of what death was and how to bury their dead instead of leaving their bodies to be free scavenger meals.
Elephants have been known to respect the dead and respect the place of death as well. Or something to that effect – I forget. But yes, they understand and respect this aspect of life if you will. Also 45000 years ago is not that long ago if you think about it – in terms of human (and neanderthal) evolution – after all humans supposedly already left Africa by this time. So I am pretty sure the Neanderthals buried their dead intentionally and with the same emotions that humans do. Thanks for another interesting episode.
We know they showed empathy, as another commenter said – they cared for their sick and disabled. And we also know they interbred with humans to the point that a decent portion of humans have Neanderthal DNA; couldn’t it be possible, if not likely that Neanderthals would have picked up some human behaviors (if they didn’t already have them) such as burying the dead? Or, since we do know we interbred, maybe this was a human who had a family with this Neanderthal or loved him? It’s so incredibly interesting to continue learning more and more of our human cousins lives. I hope some day soon we can find something that sheds even more light on the day to day lives of our ancestors of Neanderthal and other hominids.
I find it baffling that learned scientists cannot fathom the idea that our human ancestors, be they the Neanderthals or further back, would mourn their deceased. They were human just as we are. They felt love, fear, joy and sadness. Maybe their brains weren’t as evolved as ours are today, that didn’t mean they didn’t mourn or FEEL grief. I firmly believe that, maybe, they didn’t understand death the way we do, but they did grieve and find ways to revere their dead.
I believe they were more human than always thought. they had speech, art, cared for those sick & injured when they no longer contributed to the group. Unsurprisingly it seems they had reverence for their dead. Most importantly perhaps, they fought us Homo sapiens for one hundred thousand years. We had a much greater cranial capacity in those times and our genius & creativity could not resolve the problem of our cousins in all that time
I haven’t thought of Neanderthals as brutes since my teens, in the 1970s. The cranium seemed big enough to me that symbolic thinking was possible. Perhaps I just read too much Science Fiction in my teens and twenties, but even the brutish features didn’t sway me. I didn’t think they were quite where we are, of course.
I think I prefer learning this type of material through well researched novels, such as Jean Auel’s Clan of the Cavebear, which was thoroughly researched and documented. She spent vast quantities of time with archeologists and anthropologists. She even included flowers in the burial of a respected medicine woman, Iza. The rest of the Children of the Earth series (five more novels) followed the path of cro-magnon (spelling?) peoples and how they differed.
this website is one of the most valuable treasure on open internet. teenage religiously groomed me is for ever thankful for such eye opening lessons which otherwise i will never able to get from books in a region which terrorize you for openly educating about evolution. i really hate what religion do to current day meddle east.
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. —Gautama Buddha Many animal species bereave the death of their kind by crying and mourning over them, removing them out of sight, burying them, etc—ants, bees, termites, ravens, crows, dolphins, elephants, bears, giraffes, monkeys, Homo naledi did, Neanderthals did, and humans did and do. 💕☮🌎🌌
A raging sandstorm darkened the skies, filling in and covering the very handsome stegosaurus prints. With time even more layers formed above, compacting the sand from that perfectly timed sandstorm’s deposit, protecting the very handsome stegosaurus prints. Eons passed. The age of the stegosaurs was long over, so distant in time that even memory found it difficult to stretch back far enough. But the very handsome stegosaurus prints were stubborn. So stubborn that the prints had transformed into stone. The very handsome stegosaurus prints did not want to be forgotten. Eons of eons passed. The Earth became unrecognizable to what it was when the very handsome stegosaurus prints were laid down. Areas once ocean were now land. And the land was no longer covered in moss and ferns but mostly dominated by a new plant instead, grass. And, with the exception of a single theme park on a tropical island, there were no inaptly named “terrible lizards” anymore but an extraordinarily diverse array of new animals in their stead. It was one of these new animals, a mostly hairless primate, that one day uncovered the stegosaurus prints after nearly 2 billion full moons. The rock and sediment had preserved them, and they were still very handsome stegosaurus prints. The primate recognized them for what they were and remembered, for others of his kind, what time had forgotten. OK, so not an extra juicy tale … unless you count the fresh mud that the stegosaurus originally stepped in.
As a “Neandertal” myself i can attest to we hold no silly rituals for the dead, that kind of nonsense is strictly practice of those “intelligent” cousins of ours, though we find it amusing as no matter what rituals are performed over the dead, nothing changes for the dead, they remain dead and eventually forgotten,
I understand the need to insert alternate explanations and challenge the conclusions. However, I think there is a big bias in thinking that humans are somehow superior and more intelligent than all other species. We have clear examples of them being intelligent, and possessing technology that humans had at the time, and clear examples of compassion- like caring for their elderly and disabled. I dont think ritual burial is that far out of the question.
I think Neanderthals were people as much as you or I. They cared for each other and ‘Antony Gormley’s How Art Began’ has some beautiful Neanderthal cave paintings. The British Museum has wonderful stone percussion instruments too. Yes we can’t know for sure. And yes I’m wearing my rose tinted glasses. But Neanderthals can’t be too dissimilar to humans
This comment is not about the content but about the production. I have really enjoyed the content of these articles. My comment is that you really need to fix the lighting on the speaker. You have too much rim lighting and not enough fill or main light in front. It looks awful this season and it didn’t before. Otherwise keep up the great work.
I think it’s incredibly arrogant on our part to assume that Homo sapiens is so dramatically different from our fellow human species that none of them would have been capable of symbolic and abstract thought. Some of the oldest cave paintings in the world have been found in caves in Spain which we know definitively were done by Neanderthals, similarly some of the oldest jewelry has been found at Neanderthal sites. In my opinion, one of the most dramatic shortcomings in the way we view the rise of behavioral modernity and its implications for individual intelligence of Homo sapiens compared to other humans is that we underestimate the influence group size has on the ability to produce new ideas at a given pace. On the planet today, we have societies that posses spacecraft living alongside societies whose technology doesn’t span significantly beyond bows and arrows, and we would be foolish to assume that individuals of the former society are more intelligent than those of the latter. The latter sort of society follows a lifestyle in which such complicated technology has little to no use, and they live in far smaller and more isolated social networks that do not create the preconditions for developing technologies like space shuttles, namely less potential innovators are connected in a network where they can benefit from each other’s experimentation and problem solving, which naturally means the rate of many technical innovations will be slower without it following that they are somehow less intelligent as individuals.
There are several animal species that mourn the deaths of their loved ones in different ritual-like ways, species of corvids, elephants and wolves. Combine this with the fact that Neanderthals did perform non-functional tasks, like making jewelry and cave art, and it seems extremely likely that they had some non-functional way to deal with their dead loved ones, both to mourn and to dispose of the body. And in my mind we don’t really have to see evidence for it, because it was so long ago that it probably didn’t survive or it did not involve materials. For example, the body could simply be buried but before burial the family sang songs or told stories or anecdotes or things they loved about the person. So we may never find any evidence of it, but that doesn’t mean that it is more than likely that they did have some burial practices.
I mean… I feel like the combination of caring for sick and injured members of their family, and the fact that a lot of us modern humans are carrying some small part of their genes in ourselves (evidence of interbreeding) suggests pretty strongly that well… they weren’t all that different from us. So I just have a really hard time imagining that they couldn’t do ‘symbolic thinking’ or that burying the dead is remotely unlikely. Idk, it just seems to me like there’s some folks who want to form some sort of hard line between modern humans and Neanderthals that still makes them out as somehow ‘lesser’ than us. I could be wrong, just what it feels like to me. YMMV.B
Why do people always say ‘Neanderthal culture’ like it’s a monolith? Neanderthals existed, from my knowledge, at least from western Europe to the Middle East and parts of Africa, is it not infeasible to argue that, at the very least, some Neanderthal cultural pockets likely developed spiritual or even religious ideas. I think the researchers who argue otherwise are grasping at straws, the evidence that at least some Neanderthal groups practiced such stuff seems more substantial than none did.
I have neanderthal DNA in my genes according to 23 & me. I truly, do not believe my human ancestors could just ” get it on” with a human relative of noticable, significantly less intelligence. More than anything I think some anthropologists in the field have some deeply held biases, oversimplifications & reservations to work through. It’s not that hard to concieve the idea that the neanderthal likely was as intelligent as us. … And loved their people too.
Honestly, I find the question a little strange. They were our closest relatives, we even mated with them, probably several times in our history, some even suggest that Homo sapiens would not have been able to emigrate in Europe this early without Neanderthal, but we doubt that they were able to have complex thoughts? ^^’ Like, we’ve found several bodies that were disposed in a manner that, if they were Homo sapiens, would be qualified as a burial with no controversy, but because they wer slightly different, it’s a problem? It seems a little stupid XD I understand skepticism about Homo naledi burying his dead, but Homo neanderthalensis was totally able to bury his dead ^^
I have no reason to believe they didn’t bury their dead and that they didn’t do so with symbolism and meaning. We’re talking about humans here, not animals. Neanderthals were as human as we are, so much so that we could interbreed with them. They might have looked slightly different, and they certainly had differences in culture and social behaviors, but they were people. To suggest otherwise is, in my opinion, naive and incredibly self-aggrandizing. Us Homo sapiens seem to want desperately to believe that we are somehow entirely unique and special, but increasingly it’s becoming apparent that we aren’t as much as we would like to think.
A T Rex walks into a restaurant and asks for an extra juicy Stegosaurus tail. The waiter winks and says “OK, once upon a time there was a very handsome Stegosaurus prince…” Chomp… the T Rex eats the waiter. The Maitre D enters “Would you like a doggie bag?” Chomp.. the T Rex eats the dog. “Thanks, Frank, see you on Taco Tuesday! Just put it on my bill” Wait a minute, you mean I gotta collect from your descendants in 50 million years?
It’s interesting that the neanderthal was buried in a fetal position to almost mimic the same as a birthing position. They are returning a person back into the cycle. Modern day burial pose of being fully extended length wise with arms either to its side or crossed over the torso now seems unnatural.
One thing I have learned in all my years just enjoying Human History … Where one has proof of a new finding, someone else doesn’t want to have to update the books & then there’s this whole disapproval thing … Just a group of old farts who wanna keep their name in the book … Even if it’s proven there is something new to add. 😹😹😹 Just proves Even Great minds have stupid moments & grade school fights don’t stop in Grade school 😝
Humans left Africa 100k years ago Neanderthals were sailing 300k years ago… a program explaining why we don’t have Reminence of Neanderthal space elevators or mega-plexuses… why are we even suggesting Neanderthals are not advanced… Please discuss how a seafaring Humanoid Failed to dominate the world… and go to space…
Is death that abstract? What is your go to symbol in regards to death? Is it a human skull? I don’t mean to come off in a combative tone at all – it just seems very universal, honest and obligatory. I had the following occur to me in regards to the (for me) very cliched and pretentious, pseudo-philosphical discussion on does life imitate art or does art imitate life… It seems very obvious to me that ART IMITATES DEATH & DEATH FLATTERS ART all the best music is about dying or killing whether it is in fear, hatred or grief. Less popular is the acceptance and embracement of the two (as in the case of unmitigated mental illness). Yet, I would argue, that the less popular an area of study or topic of discussion is… The more dire and deserved the attention given is (or should be). I owe my sanity as well as the breath I draw to heavy metal and the therapeutic aggression and terror management it has provided me since I was a child. After all, “to see the light, you must die!”
Nobody asked but here’s my opinion anyway. I think that it’s pure homo sapiens arrogance to assume other hominids were “just dumb brutal cavemen”. Think about it. Someone making jewelry/adornments. Just try to imagine what is the lowest possible intelligence level where an individual is capable of doing and planning something like that, just for decoration? Humans think like that about other animals too. Orcas for example behave very differently depending on individuals. Still “scientist” are wondering why the other orca was hostile towards a diver and another was nice and just curious? Could it be, like, different personalities? Naah, that can’t be it, let’s look at the possibility of an invisible injury, sex hormones or some environmental factors. At least we have acknowledged the intelligence of dolphins. Jeez I’m getting way too worked up on this. 😀
I asked ChatGPT to finish the story. Here is what it came up with! “…and one day, he was captured by a mean T-Rex. The prince was locked away in a dark cave and the T-Rex feasted on his fellow stegosauruses every day. But the prince had a secret. His tail was the juiciest and tastiest part of his body, and the T-Rex wanted it for himself. So, the T-Rex made a deal with the prince. If the prince could escape the cave, he would be free to go, but the T-Rex would have the prince’s tail as a reward. The prince agreed, and after many trials and tribulations, he finally escaped the cave. The T-Rex kept his word and gave the prince his freedom, but in return, he took the prince’s tail and enjoyed the juiciest and tastiest meal of his life. And that, my friend, is why you asked for an extra juicy stegosaurus tail.” The T-Rex chuckled and took a big bite of his tail, savoring the flavor. And the prince lived happily ever after, free from the clutches of the mean T-Rex.
Let’s say we have been living in cities, now, for about ten millenium. Before that, villages, and before that settlements, and before that, strung out along waterways and coastal areas in extended-family houses bringing us back to the time before animal husbandry and agriculture. Nowadays, in the remote areas today there are those still using stone tools to build fairly elaborate homes in village groups with textiles and pets. We have ten thousand years of cities, before that two hundred thousand years of village history, forgotten. During the early stone age, presumably, sheltering in large woven nests like that of other primates, improvised shelters, likely in warm (or cool) environments like caves or cliff overhangs, large trees, and so on for maybe two million years. The brain blower is that there has been time for these organic structures to have fossilized; so when we find a fossil house made of plant fibres, wood, earth, stone, skins and hair, it could be from as many as 2,000,000 BP.
yeah so very interesting,, but the implications for social structure of far more “wild” environments are also huge. Today’s wilderness is absolutely dominated by the human race, we are destructive, we are unstoppable, and we cause great loss by the environment, stressing it. This stress would be like the strife of wartime for the wilderness, resulting in significant breakdown in communication habits between animals living in an area under “dominant” conditions. The social structures of the animals we can study do not exist in the kind of environment that existed before such proliferation of infrastructure and resource exploitation that we experience today. So while it’s possible that the neanderthals buried there dead, and this can mean that neanderthals may have been far from “wild” and instead were part of a greater cultural society, so might have many other dominant creatures of the earth. (bovine, for example)
What’s sad is that so many people forget they were human like us. Intelligent with thoughts and feelings, complex ones like a modern man. So many people see them as inferior, thinking they know better then a scientist. It’s almost disgusting seeing those comments after learning about them. Weird how Geico was on the money with how’d they’d act in modern day.
The more I learn about Neanderthals and Denisovans and how closely related they are to us, similar their behaviors were to us, the more it feels wrong to call them a separate species. I don’t think a word rightly exists yet, because “race” and “ethnicity” have different connotations. Something in between that and species I guess? They were as human as we are, and arguably still exist because all Eurasians have their DNA. They just didn’t adapt to their changing environments as quickly as we did to survive wholesale as themselves, for whatever various reasons Similar vein, but considering out direct shared ancestor is possibly homo heidelbergensis and then erectus before that and then habilis before that, what even is a human is much broader than our anatomically modern selves. And arguably, those ancestor species really aren’t gone if we’re they’re chrono-evolved descendants (I know that isn’t 100% proven in any way and human evolution is complicated mixing and remixing of separate species and genetic drift, this is more of a rhetorical musing)
Cave art has been found both in relationship to Neanderthal burials, and with stencils of hands which fit Neanderthal bone structure much better than they fit human bone structure. It is pretty compelling evidence that they were thinking symbolically. Their cave art rivals that which early modern humans left in various caves. I think we still sell these guys short. There’s certainly a lot of evidence, increasingly so, to suggest that they were thinking in a way which wasn’t too much different from early modern humans such as Cro-Magnon. Though it doesn’t tell the whole story, both hard larger crania than modern humans do.
Predator catch the most familiar prey that they knew and well adapted to catch. The preys evolved to adapt for survival. Both have the main instinct of FEAR and HUNGER. Hominid bury their dead out of reverence and love is too advance for their needs in Evolution? Perhaps the hominid have so much fear of their Predator which have familiarity with their prey characteristic they become the main catch to eat. And perhaps, they bury their dead to avoid being seek automatically as the main dinner time and time again. It help the species survived.😊😅🤣
I think Neandethals have been done so dirty. most people still think of them at knuckle-dragging ape-men (not in any small part because of their portayal in film and TV). How much more fascinating would it be to consider them as complex people, just like our early ancestors? This is also just my opinion but I think there is an element of human superiority at play here – historically we like to think that we (sapiens), are just so special and unique to all other animals that we struggle with the possibility that our evolutionary cousins might have been just as complex as us.
Does anyone actually still think Neanderthals were primitive beings? I watched a fascinating documentary about the Bruniquel Cave in France, where a Neanderthal construction was found far underground. So they not only purposefully built something that was more abstract than shelter, tool or weapon, they also had to light a cave with no daylight and little ventilation while building – which they did.
No they where unintelligent cave people. Let’s not get ahead if ourselves, we are also unintelligent cave people. So to think they wouldn’t be capable of burial is stemmed from ignorance or arrogance. Honestly elephants a probably only a couple steps from burying thier dead. The way they handle the bones of their fallen seems like they got the concept of this “this was a family member and know they aren’t”, but maybe I’m projecting my own thoughts.
Human culture and behaviors existed before modern homo sapiens, our ancestors were just as conscious and we need to stop thinking of them as wild beasts. I think a lot of people treat h.sapiens as if our behaviors and such came out of nowhere and that’s why we outlived the rest of our family. The whole Human Exceptionalism thing has been continously proven wrong. 100 years ago people thought there were so many things that only people did but once we actually opened up to the idea that other animals might have a higher level of cognition that previously thought, lo and behold, we see complex tool usage, play, funerary rites, and loads of other formerly “human only” behaviors. I wouldn’t be surprised if Neanderthals their own language that was mutually intelligible to h.sapiens of the time, considering how much intermingling they did
It’s not an easy question to answer, since behaviors don’t exactly fossilize, except in the form of physical things left behind by those behaviors. Though I agree that it seems plausible that the Neanderthals did bury their dead – I feel obligated to point out that elephants display caring for their disabled, and definitely display grief for their dead. But they aren’t physically capable of burying one of their own…so they don’t. Maybe if they had the option, they would? Or maybe I’m reading too much into all of it, which is also a very human thing to do after all. I kind of want to believe that they were more “like us” than not, that we’re not really that unique, and have commonalities with many other beings on this earth.
I always thought it was stupid to think neanderthals were unintelligent and didn’t bury their dead. I mean, elephants have funerals. Monkeys mourn their dead. How could we think neanderthals wouldn’t do the same? I mean, it’s like the experts are saying neanderthals were all psychopaths and didn’t care for their tribe. It’s weird
I honestly think the still lasting resistance to the idea that Neanderthals were our equal peers is just human-centrism/exceptionalism in a destructive and disgusting way. When will we learn to accept that in that regard we’re not special, we’re lucky. Neanderthals had lower populations in colder regions. Prey moved or died out, and they couldn’t find others to mate with, so they mated with us, and warred over food or starved. They weren’t stupid, or less capable or developed in any meaningful way, they were just dealt a bad hand, and a lot of folks find that a hard pill to swallow even in today’s world about people living now. Even with literal card games.
The framing of this bothers me somewhat – I know people have to be careful to not anthropomorphize or whatever but, like, even other animals are known to hold some sort of ritual at the death of kin. Or mourn for extended times. Or show expressions of culture. At the very least, I know this to be the case with elephants, giraffes, and chimps. Only one of those is even remotely close to human, and surely Neanderthals were much closer to us in behavior than chimps are. So I’d honestly be shocked to learn that they didn’t have somewhat similar inclinations about their dead.
Well, sure they buried them. I think even Neanderthal would be smart enough to figure out that if you put the dead dude in a hole in the ground and cover him up you don’t have to smell him any more. Burying the dead may be even older than Neanderthal. I’d postulate that hominids have been doing it since before the discovery of fire. Otherwise they probably would have just burned them. By the time fire was mastered burials probably had already become tradition so they just kept doing it. That’s how it evolved into the ritualistic burials we still do to this day.
I’ve recently visited the park of the Murgia of Matera, Italy. The guide, a famous local archaeologist, showed us the tombs escavate d in the rock bed in a shape that accommodates a foetal burial position. Those tombs are believed to be connected to the caves inhabited by the Neandertal people documented in that location.
People excavating a Neandertal site found a bone from a juvenile cave bear which had been hollowed out, cut, and had holes cut into it. An exact copy was made, and given to wind instrument player, who showed that she could easily play many pieces by Bach on it. There were some “experts” who said the shape and holes could only be an accident. But what a bloody accident, right? It just happened to have holes in the exact places that made it in an instrument that could handle all the notes in classical music pieces. Not a chance. They played music too.
Please explain things much more slowly. The movie shows flashes of images, pictures, figures, but doesn’t give us enough time to truly look at them. Of course you can pause the article, but it is very annoying to see for instance the title of an article for a few seconds, but not long enough in order to read the title completely.
In addition to revising our idea of Neanderthals, I wish we would reconsider using “cavemen” as a pejorative. Developing long-term residences in caves is a pretty huge conceptual leap for a primate. I’m not sure if it gets short shrift because other animals who are less like us do it, but given that it’s absent in apes it’s clearly not a behavior we got from a pre-intelligent ancestor. Either hominins came up with it ourselves or we observed and imitated other animals, and both of those are pretty big shows of intelligence.
Elephants and hippos are both often seen gathering around dead fellows in what looks so exactly like a mourning group it is hard to see it otherwise. Elephants will do this whenever they pass the bones of a fallen elephant. Hippos will do this with the dead of other animals even..which given their reputation for being lethal people think is “weird”. Yet just think how lethal humans are. Far far FAR more lethal than any other animal, and we mourn both our own dead, and the dead of other species …our beloved pets and animals we have lived with.
They had similar brains to us, and were genetically similar enough to breed with us. I think they must have been intelligent if our ancestors chose to mate with them on such a large scale. It’s honestly sad to think that they were so similar to us but didn’t survive alongside us. Whatever culture or language they may have had will forever be lost. That could have been us, or could very well be us in some distant future.
Interesting clip. A view that includes a life after life is a form of abstract thinking, I think. Making of tools also is a form of abstraction. A certain amount of planing, the awareness of the passage of time and so on; all of which requires or seems to require a complex imagination. The evolution of a culture, a religion, then might be seen as a sequence of emergences as a consequence, then, of a person’s or a groups’ imagination? Imaginings that were or are of use to making tools?
I’m starting to think that humans learnt much from the Neanderthals. After all, the Neanderthals left Africa before our ancestors did, so had a lot of time to create cultures. Maybe look at the cultural habits of Indigenous Australians, now that it has been found they are descended from the first humans that left Africa, so likely are the source, or learnt from the source, of any cultural behaviours.
I took biological anthropology in high school in the early 80’s and was taught that we were not related to them, but when we examined our skulls in class I found Neanderthal traits on mine. I am glad to see that scientists have now acknowledged that there is a genetic connection between some of us and them.
we are so desperate to keep ourselves somehow “above” the other inhabitants of this planet, that we will go to great lengths to try to prove that they are less than we exalted beings are. I am always struck by the longevity of the other species we share the surface with, and comparatively, how short our time is, and it seems, will be.
And cave painting doesn’t show symbolic thinking at all, there will eventually be a reinterpretation of the information in cave paintings and it will be found that they were far more intelligent than was ever believed and imo our beliefs in the origins of a written language will be called into question
the question might be also as harsh as it sounds. before people started to be more location bound. (agriculture) was there a (functional) need to process the dead. If Neanderthals did stay at one location for long enough or even homosapians in that time, then big chance that out of that need to do so the habit to also do this well becomes a thing. the abstract and the direct can be very much tied in to it.
Heliocentrism, Evolution, science often hits the Homo sapiens ego. We are not the literal center of the universe, even tho we liked to think we were for centuries. We are not a special creation separated from non human animlas by divne will, they are distant relatives. Even tho, to this day some people refuse to accept it. I think maybe there’s a part of our ego that doesn’t want to let go of our “special hominid” status. Even tho clearly other hominids were very much human.
Such a 2002 idea to even suggest the whole uncultured cavemen bit. They had family bonds, rituals, interbred with our ancestors etc … beside some superficial physical attributes (we have more physical diversity in our modern species btw than between neanderthal and their contemporary hominids) they would have been indistinguishable in those shared communities.
Of course they were feeling, thinking people, very much like ourselves. We interbred with them. Between 2-4% of European DNA is, in fact, Neandertal. To pretend otherwise, to demean them and assume they were stupid, gets very close to the unthinking stigmatism that’s resulted in discrimination between various human tribes that, sadly, continues to this day.
I feel like it isn’t remembered enough that at times our cultures mingled? They still to a small extent live on with us today as some of us have their DNA, there would have been like half homo half neanderthals at some point so surely there were some groups of us that lived together and shared culture. I think they were just as “”human”” as us ):
Neanderthal were smart folk. Even if they did not burial their fellows out of ritual or a burgeoning religion, they could have buried them out of practicality. What is better – to toss a beloved person into a nearby ditch to decay malodorously and/or get dragged apart by predators OR bury them beneath the soil – no decomposition odors, no predatory scavengers.?
i think its fully arrogance to deny the beauty of compassion shown by Neanderthals. the intentional burials, necklaces, every thing else be damned. we see even chimps show compassion for their dead. it is not a stretch in the least to think our fellow humans have empathy and intent behind their actions. because even if they are neanderthals, they were human. just slightly different, enough to tell a difference between the two groups, but did that stop interbreeding between the two human species? nah. i truly believe our ancestors and neanderthals were closer than many skeptics want to believe. and i say want intentionally because thats what i think is going on. they dont want to believe the possibility that humans as they are today are the only “superior” species of human and that everyone else are just .. basically the closest thing to human apes. which is really devastating to think about