The Landrum-Griffin Act of 1959 aimed to control union corruption. Theories of democracy have evolved into competitive and deliberative theories by the latter part of the twentieth century. This chapter examines the importance of democratic procedures in defining rights that apply equally to all and through a procedure. The prevailing view is that democratic procedures cannot confer democratic legitimacy to decisions about democratic procedures.
The approval of democratic decision-making procedures allows those who have not found a majority for their preferred policy to accept and comply with them. The chapter concludes with four core principles: the first principle insists that no consideration of the quality of political results is ever relevant for questions of democracy.
Democracy is a set of ideas and principles about freedom, but it also consists of practices and procedures that have been molded through a long, often tortuous history. Defining Democracy looks at the theory of why and the history of how different voting procedures have come to be used in three fields.
The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) protects workplace democracy by providing employees at private-sector workplaces the fundamental right to seek better working conditions. The Wagner Act established the legal right of most workers to join labor unions and bargain collectively with their employers. Citizen initiatives and popular referenda are two forms of direct democracy.
The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits states from depriving “any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”. The Casey Court grounded its decision solely on the theory that the right to obtain an abortion is part of the “liberty” protected by the Bill of Rights.
📹 How Lenin Changed The Course Of Post-WW1 Russia
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📹 Philosopher spells out how populists defeated liberal democracy | John Gray interview
Political philosopher John Gray came by JOE Towers to discuss his new book The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism.
Lenin’s ethnic background has long been a matter of dispute among non-Soviet biographers. Robert Payne in his massive Lenin (New York, 1964) maintains that Lenin’s father was not of Slavic, but of Chuvash ancestry, i.e., descended from a Turkic-speaking minority in the North of European Russia. As for Lenin’s mother, she is said to be of Northern European stock. Payne concludes: “He (Lenin) was German, Swedish, and Chuvash, and there was not a drop of Russian blood in him.”
Interesting points, some of which I agree with and some I don’t. What I do disagree with is the root of populism. In my view it’s not fundamentally ideological, it is merely a symptom of something wider. Ideological populism is something that’s emerged on both left and right as a consequence of the failure of the neoliberal economic consensus to deliver improving (or even stable) living standards for the majority. Widespread public discontent provides a a political opportunity for demagogues, and in such periods they inevitably emerge from the fringes. When we look at history, there are a great many examples where sustained economic dislocation was the catalyst for reactionary political periods. Essentially it’s a manifestation of government failure to deliver economic stability for the many, resulting in blame games and radicalization of the electorate. It’s a phenomena that the Chinese government understands all too well, hence their relentless focus on growing the economy to becalm the populous. It’s therefore unlikely in my view that western populism will subside, until a new economic consensus, that demonstrably benefits the majority, becomes firmly established. And this will be very difficult to deliver when various tyrants are deliberately stoking global economic upsets e.g. in the energy markets.
Great interview. As a non Briton even as a non Westerner I learned a lot about those perspectives. The past decades of easy times of 1990’ies or even before that neo liberal experimentation that became a sopcio/economic/political religion for elites in west and became a trend (like Ancien Regime before French Revolution) is the source of our current troubles and maybe would be doom us, inevitibbility of history due to decisions taken long before we had a say about them.
John Gray should know that in addition to the causes of populism that he mentions, I.e. globalization, wage stagnation and housing shortage/exploitation with a potent dash of property tax, the populists are reacting to immigration. Brexit was basically a reaction to immigration, the FN and the AfD are protesting immigration. In the US where legal immigrants total well over 1M year in year out via a corporate recruiting and vetting process show up in the US as upper middle class and wealthy, whereas the corporations also pull in illegal immigrants for their low wage and subcontracting work. Where are the immigrants coming from? From nations with autocratic governments or weak states that coerce people to take flight, from war torn nations like Iraq, Afghanistan and especially Syria, several African nations and Latin/South American countries to the tune of 10’s of millions a year. In general, a South to North shift of population affected by global warming as well. Populism is a reaction to this demographic shift which is being accommodated by government policies and has fueled a frenzy of gun ownership.
Interesting conversation, on some of the broad comments i was in agreement on others i was in hard disagreement but clearly an important and reasonable thinker, on corbyn he was off the mark and with russia ukraine he was off the mark on some matters pertaining to that issue he were correct on others his framing was off, regardless Interesting and worthwhile discussion
The irony of Hobbes sweeping away the classical writers ‘for treating words as realities instead of constructs’, is that today the ideologues treat their won words seriously as realities (or constructing reality if not representing it). I think the classical writers were right, in not treating language so literally, but making use of symbolic and figurative language in order to frame our sense of reality. Art not ‘science’.
I am not a philosopher, nor a political student . What I am is an average English senior citizen. But I can only agree to a small amount of whats being said. . Since WW2 the sole American Foreign policy has focused upon regime change . Unless nations copy the American political structure, its worthless . Europe 1947/8 they brought in the Marshall Plan, its aim was to stop the spread of communism across Europe, mainly France, Italy and Germany . NATO was a natural offspring . China, American supported Chiang Kai-Shek, its recorded that Roosevelt wanted him to control French Indo China post war. Greece America meddled in their civil war 1947-1950 . Supplying vast amount of military and economic aid to the national government. Iran, after putting the Shah into power, they hatched to dispose of him . Outcome Khamenei became president in 1981. Latin America from Cuba to Chile . The American government has overthrown legitimately elected leaders, because they have been bad for American business . It would be easier to name those countries that the USA hasn’t used the CIA to influence coup d’etat’s . Unofficial name . the Banana Wars. My list of South American Countries that the USA has NOT been subvertly involved with.
I wonder how things might have been different if the DNC in the US hadn’t torpedoed Bernie in the 2016 Democratic primary. Bernie spoke to a lot of the same angst at the status quo that Trump did, but with a less destructive path to resolution. Could we have seen sufficient reversal of neoliberal policies and a return to the sorts of economic stewardship of the 50s and 60s to have prevented (or at least reduced the impact of) the various demagogues rising to power now.
I’ve read the leading Anarchist thinkers. Not one advocates for chaos. If they do, then a direct quote would refute that claim. Anarchism is the only political theory that places Power or Authority as a central theme in its thinking. Liberal democracy is equivalent to Globalism. Economic liberalism – which is hardly ever debated – reduces everything to a commodity – including human labour. When this is juxtaposed with cultural liberalism its internal absurdities are laid bare.
Because the so-called liberals arent liberal at all, They despise us ” working class”, The so-called liberals are now 98% of our MPs, They pick their own class to be MPs, They are nearly all establishment and all they want is power. The last PM of GB who was decent and honest was James Callaghan. I suggest reading Paul Emburys despised it tells the truth about the So-called liberals.
A wonderful ‘fireside’ chat. Thank you to both. As a Canadian it is interesting to have a seat and see the discussion occuring, referencing Canada’s two best friends. Our next election will ljkely see a transition from hyper-liberalism to populism. And for me, it is because of what occurred early on in this discussion – conflict. Our current government does not like conflict but have been so adverse to stamping any conflict out, that those with opposing views on a topic are feeling bullied and are seeking their new saviour. I believe conflict should be embraced in order to get through the tough decisions. Going to be a rough ride.
Liberal democracy just needs tweaking to sort it out. 1. Remove all monies from politics and law, influence and corruption must be eradicated for decision making to become in the interests of the state. 2. Universal suffrage is a ridiculous concept. Women and mentally deficient persons are unable to make rational decisions as to what is in their own best interests. 3. Short terms of office result in short term policy decisions. Ministers and leaders must serve a minimum term beyond a 4 year period, or policy becomes driven by election cycle.
Whether neo conservate, neo liberal or “neo” anything, advanced capitalism will always lead to fascism. What do the wealthy do with their money when they can buy anything on earth that’s for sale? They buy things that are not for sale – the law, public institutions, nongovernment organizations, law enforcement, prisons, public utilities, public spaces, and government – all government). All things Hobbs claimed were necessary to maintain civil society. Sadly, Hobbs didn’t read Marx.
“Populism” was a term invented by literal ancient slavers outraged at the very idea that their servants might have a say in society lessening the power that they “the superior” noblemen would have. There is nothing more anti democracy than denouncing populism, the practice of appealing to the popular will of the people. “How dare you appeal to the common interests and desires of the filthy mob” sounds like the words from a tyrant king, not someone who beleives in democracy, rule of the demos, the people.
in the first place, ‘liberal democracy’ has no connection to democracy, ‘populism’ is what you get when you don’t have democracy, but wish to mobilize the sans culottes against your rivals. the chit-chat of philosophers is generally unconnected to reality, because they do not live in a society where philosphers matter.
It’s NOT populism. It’s democracy. Populism is a word used to denigrate the rise of the right. Right wingers seek the quickest and most direct route to common sense solutions. Liberal left does exactly the opposite. Left wing is essentially over as there is no longer a mass working class to represent. This is why the UK Labour Party is seen as a pointless enterprise. And it is why it has tried to reinvent itself as anything that would annoy the right: crazy environmentalists claims, gender nonsense, mass immigration policy, removal of white western power.
22:58 The friction between Poland and Ukraine was largely invented for electoral purposes by the ruling PiS party, which lost the election to the democratic opposition. Expect Poland to become more supportive again in the coming months. The Polish election of Oct. 15 must be considered a major defeat for national populism. 23:47 It’s becoming clear that Crimea is untenable by the Russians in the way that Kherson became untenable. John Gray does not seem to recognise that Crimea is more vulnerable as Russian-held territory than, say, the eastern Donbass, and of greater existential importance to Ukraine. The Russian population in Crimea can be used as hostages for the return of the Ukrainians held in Russia, with mutual deportation in the way such deportations were done after WWII in this part of the world. 27:47 What is so frustrating is that the West, if united, has all the means to dominate the 21st century. Both Russia and China are weakened by despotic rule, while major countries such as Japan, India and Brazil probably recognise the West as being closer to their national aspirations and offering a better deal for achieving prosperity. The defeat of the Russian-Iranian-N.Korean axis and containment of China are the route to achieving this new Euro-American peace. Unfortunately, the West seems fragmented for seemingly parochial, irrational reasons.
Democracy is over look at America they vote and end up with Geriatric Joe, their votes were pointless. And listening to non-productive academics talk about somebodies ideas from the past, and just like economics the Keynesian system is endemic in the academic mind and they have not noticed its failure, but press on regardless. An opinion is just that.
Fascinating interview. Being an American Liberal, I caught a bias against liberalism and a misunderstanding of America’s 1990’s. Much of what occurred in the 1990’s was put in motion by our conservative Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush. They pushed free trade and NAFTA. This was opposed by American labor. It was not opposed or exposed enough by Democrats since it was an era of globalization. Yet, metaphorically all boats did not rise many sunk. This created today’s disenchanted workers ripe and ready for a populist president. Add the 2008 financial crisis and the Nation’s first black President and you have recipe for Trump. This is not hyper-liberalism, it’s the past practices of hyper conservative free market capitalism. Our wealth divide has never been greater. Now dissatisfied low paid workers and small business owners are being misinformed daily by the far right media.
The Ukraine conflict was clearly provoked by Western encroachment on Russia. The de facto incorporation of Ukraine into the Western orbit by 2022 was the last straw. There’s a 15 year build up to the crisis which makes this clear. Against this Gray has one essay that Putin wrote, which has been interpreted in different ways. It’s certainly true that the Russian elite view Ukraine as their “back yard”, and they even deep down believe Poland should be in their sphere of influence as well. But that merely underscores how Western encroachment upon Ukraine was so provocative. It’s a big leap from there to conclude the purpose of the invasion was imperial expansion. What Putin is doing now — after years of diplomacy failed — is to accept that the West is hostile to Russia. He’s now consolidating his position in Ukraine by annexing the Russian speaking part — about 40% of Ukraine — and then turning the rest into a harmless buffer zone. That’s not imperial expansion, it’s a defensive move. The fact Western observers cannot see this reflects the real tragedy, which is the dialogue of the deaf between the West and Russia.
at 19:10 the US/British invasion of Iraq is described as a “folly”. That’s a novel way to apologise for the war crimes committed and to deflect from the material interests behind the invasion. The notion that the invasion was justified because of the crimes of the Hussein regime doesn’t withstand even cursory scrutiny. If the Nuremburg Trials standard was applied the invasion, a war of aggression, those who organised it would be convicted of war crimes. The discussion just shows liberals have made their peace with imperialist war. (I can’t find any article on this website addressing the persecution of Julian Assange. Is that right? Is Wikileaks exposure of US war crimes in Iraq of no interest? Were those war crimes a “folly”?) We are facing WW3. The material interests of US banks, finance houses and corporations requires the use of the US war machine to maintain US hegemony over the world economy. This is why the US provoked the Russian invasion of Ukraine. (Putin’s criminal invasion sought to defend the interests of the Russian oligarchy). This is also why the US is preparing for war with China. The other imperialist powers are preparing to fight to defend their interests with Germany and Japan rearming. The capitalist class have a “solution” to the present crisis: 1. war (make their rivals and other pay), 2. austerity (make the working class pay) and 3. dictatorship (suppress and crush the threat of revolution.) Anyone interested in an alternative should read the World Socialist Web Site (wsws.
John Gray is a fascinating thinker and always interesting to listen to. I do disagree with him over Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine. I recently listened to a Kyiv official who in April 2022, shortly after Russia’s invasion, negotiated a peace treaty (which Putin signed and Ukraine initialled) before Boris Johnson flew to Kyiv and wrecked the agreement. According to this Ukrainian negotiator, Putin recognised that invading Ukraine was a mistake and sincerely wanted an agreement. The trope that Putin wanted an expanded Russian homeland is belied by his clear statement that Russia was big enough and not in need of any additional territory. The real reasons for invading Ukraine are similar to America’s motivation in the Cuban missile: preventing a hostile military from establishing a forward base of attack (especially with nuclear missiles – which the US declared they would station in Ukraine) immediately adjacent to the core Russian homeland. It puzzles me that serious thinkers feel the need to posit additional nefarious motivations for the invasion. We have Bill Burns’ (current head of the CIA and former US ambassador to Moscow’s) leaked memo to Condaleezza Rice from 2008 where he reports that opposition to NATO inducting Ukraine faces unanimous opposition from all Russian power factions, even pro-western groups.
life is not that difficult..the power has to be in the hands of people (Switzerland..)..not run by aristocrats, political parties or any other selfappointed parasites..people in the 2Age of Knowledge/Information” cannot be fooled as before..it is that simple..history does not always repeat itself..even if humanity does not live in the same Ages..we are still very different genetically, IQ, infrastructure, etc.
Gray speaks in a folksy matter of fact, down to earth way and has some interesting observations. However, while there is some interest in populists in the UK and Europe, or USA, it is easy to over exaggerate it’s support, which is never in a majority ( except Hungary). Mostly it is not the largest minority. The few in power in Europe, notably Italy, are in coalitions that limit what they can do and moderate them. Nor is populism increasing. These are the ones voted out mostly after 1 term: Bolsonaro (Brazil), Trump (USA), PiS /Law & Justice (Poland) and soon in the UK. They are well beaten in France, Netherlands, Greece and Germany.
There “will be grid lock in Washington”? I would argue, there already has been massive grid lock in Washington. Also I also disagree on another point: America has always been preoccupied with their internal politics. It’s their national past time. And Trump will be in prison by then, so it may actually be a very different climate. Also, Joe Biden wouldn’t be a one-term president. It’d be his second term….
It’s interesting that he’s this anti-Liberal/post-Liberal iconoclast until the subject of the former Labour leadership is brought up. Then it’s BS Liberal Talking Point A and BS Liberal Talking Point B. Because in this place, and with the rules that our Lords and Master have laid down. Even iconoclasm has its limits.
Gray is fascinating, but he is an impossible interview. He speaks in chapters and doesn’t seem interested a give and take. Aaron Bastani challenged Gray in different places in the Navarro interview, but he was too besotted to take many risks. Ollie went to sleep. I expected him to perk up when Gray was so dismissive of HS2, but nothing. I’m not arguing Gray is right or wrong, only that he could be asked to wrestle with evidence that doesn’t fit with his views. After perusal several interviews with Gray, I’ve lost interest in reading his book.
Only a very distant/casual observer would conclude that far right figures have remained unchanged for decades. Of course I agree with the material analysis – I’m reminded of Paul Mason saying he’d never forgive neoliberalism for turning his neighbours into fascists – but it’s incomplete without a real understanding of how the far right has morphed over time.
But conflict is not “the state of nature.” Take a walk in the woods, John, or a hike in the mountains: you will not find perpetual anarchy and conflict. On the contrary, you will find a remarkable peacefulness to the point of monotony. It is civilization that is in a state of perpetual anarchy and conflict, war, ruthless competition, pointless cruelty, selfishness and brutality. There is no greater predator than civilized man – and the emphasis here is on “civilized.”
Please Mr Gray don’t give us Scots the responsibility of giving England enough seats for a Labour government which you admit is so centrist that it’s indistinguishable from the tories. Scotland hasn’t voted for a tory government since the 1950s but nonetheless we have had tory governments imposed on us because we are only 8% of the UK population. No! If England wants a Labour government it’s the English people’s responsibility to get it for themselves. The SNP’s policies are far more socialist than anything beong offered by Starmer. Excuse my ignorance but what did Corbyn do that was actually as anti-Semitic? Was it that he spoke up for the Palestinians? He stood up for underdogs who have been enduring 75 years of genocide by the Zionists. Is that his great crime?
48:11 Grey falsely accused Jeremy Corbyn of “casting a doubt” over the Salisbury poisoning. Here’s what Corbyn said back then (his twitter, just ggogle): “The attack in Salisbury was an appalling act of violence, which we condemn in the strongest terms. The Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence and our response must be both decisive and proportionate.”
The reasons people give for not liking Jeremy Corbyn, are often based on debunked accusations or misrepresented positions in mainstream media. The Forde Report lays out what was really behind the antisemitism row, and the Russia poisoning position was to gather evidence before jumping to conclusions that could inflame international relations. He offered the example that it may be Russian mafia and we should refrain until we had better investigated. It was hardly an unreasonable position.
Hitchens was saying back in 07 that there will be a populist revolution, that people can’t be pushed around the way they have been without repercussions. He also said that the left needs to make sure it’s not taken over by the populist right, because they’re fascists. I guess we didn’t listen. Here we are.
I like how Corban “anti semitism” was brushed off as some sort of official policy. He didn’t apologize or take responsibility for it because he had nothing to do with it. And these days, there’s some 2020 hindsight to 2019 as to what passes for antisemitism today. Starmer is a seat warmer, and the remnance of the viability of the labour movement and party was murder in cold blood with Corban. Even Gray here has his finger prints on the murder weapon.
Liberal democracy has been undermined by an emerging STATE CLASS whose main purpose is its own concentration of power. Excessive legislation, creative new narratives in social discourse, all serve the purpose of concentrating power. it’s neither left nor right. It appeases big business, it’s rhetoric is fake progressive. Populists, are filling in the void with the growing disconnect. A great talk by the way. Enjoyable and insightful.
Your assumption that this current rash of faux populism is the result of liberal overreach is complete speculation which you don’t back up with any facts or statistics. I would argue that it is more a result of corruption, both legal and illegal, combined with a billionaire financed right wing media machine which has shed any pretense of being news, removing their mask to become 100% propaganda.
Thankfully America did intercede in Europe with the Marshall Plan to defuse communism or the whole of Europe would have ended up like East Germany/Berlin, Hungary, Czech, Poland (eastern Europe for the most part) in poverty, stagnation, communist terror. Fortunately my grandparents saw what was coming to Eastern Europe and got out to live a prosperous and free existence relatively speaking in the West! 🙏
It is a darkly comic tragedy. The people who think they are for the highest forms of law, order and common sense bring about the worst, most depraved anarchy. The people who think they are humanitarian and defenders of global unity standing for compassion and care bring about extended careless and thoughtless suffering, condoning autocrats who only want violence and brutal control.
Those criticising the world elite as being “liberal democracy” do not understand the world liberal. Admitted neither do the world elite who use this term to describe themselves! Hayek, Adams and Jefferson were liberals, most of the western leaders today are socialists. These schools of thought are diametrically opposed because liberals believe in a small state, low taxes, free market economics, personal liberties enshrined in a constitution, equality in the eyes of the law. Liberals do not believe in ever bigger taxes, central banks, more and more central planing more and more surveillance, more and more regulation. The 21st century will be defined as a clash between classical liberalism and authoritarianism. I know which side I am on.
Those families in U.K. who lost love ones in Iraq War 179, plus injured parties, can now take ex PM Tony Blair to H M. COURTS for his lies, that are ‘’well documented’’ about: “Weapons of Mass Destruction & Chemical Weapons’’ reaching U.K. – all horrendous lies – there were none of these weapons held in Iraq – & – PM Tony Blair knew it !!! Hundreds of thousands dead because of his lies, LAW SUITS will be winging their way to his U.K. Adress & Solicitors very soon …. as now a multimillionaire, he can afford to pay out ….. for his dreadful crime …. What about Alistair Campbell, he was involved too …. did he know about these lies to start a WAR in IRAQ as PM Blair’s right hand man / henchman …. if so, he’s liable too !! Lastly, Ex PM John Major – his situation over ‘’HIV BLOOD SCANDAL LIABILITY’’ … now it’s shown PM’s Politicians can be sued for ‘’money’’ for ‘’proven lies without doubt’’ it will really open a can of Worms …… 👀
We have strong ethical and practical reasons to support Ukraine. If Russian aggression succeeds, the West, including the US, will be left in a weak and precarious position, threatened by both Russia and China. The vast natural resources and the manpower of Ukraine will be turned against us and we will once again find ourselves in a life or death struggle with a renewed Soviet Union allied with an emboldened China. There was a period before the Second World War when Hitler could have been easily defeated and a long and terrible world war avoided. We are still at the stage where Putin can be fairly easily defeated, if we have the courage to stand up to him. We don’t need philosophy to win, but we do need balls.
It’s interesting that Gray seemed prepared to discount the Corbyn project on the grounds that he (Corbyn) failed to acknowledge the scale of a ‘problem’ for which nothing but the flimsiest whiff of ‘evidence’ has ever been presented. Disappointing, given how on the money he can be on other, not all, issues.
I wondered why there aren’t capitalist philosophers, and here I got my answer – because they would sound deluded. Imagibe thinking that the problems in Iraq were caused by Iraq sonehow choosing to become an anarchy out of spite to the West, rather than the devastating war waged against them by the biggest police state of modern times, under false pretenses. It’s like he accepts uncritically the premise that US/western military interventions are by definition good and shouldn’t be questioned, regardless of how many deaths and destruction they cause, or he regards them as some form of special occurences that are unable to exert real-world consequences. Oy! The people are pissed because they have been sold a lie! They are constantly sold lies! The american dream, the western “liberal” values, human rights, freedom, women rights, “spreading democracy”, that the free markets will solve all problems – those are all LIES!
I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation. Individuals have conquered themselves. Nations and large bodies of men, never. John Adams
We can’t guide the world to behave like us. Our (British) history is a continuous series of wars, civil and international, and our democracy, such as it is, didn’t come easily. Ukraine and the Near East are nothing to do with us. Saddam was a thug, but he was their thug, ditto Ghadafi, and their polities worked for them. Our politicians have made and are still making terrible mistakes, buoyed up by a supine news media. Our democracies are better than any alternatives, but still very flawed, and won’t improve by importing hoards of people still happily trapped in medieval religious and social straight jackets.
Hobbes is only applicable where the rulers have ignored that, unless the lowest level of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs are fulfilled, then humans often do not have the capacity, or desire, to address higher needs. When people have a roof over their head, a full belly and relative security, then his views are less relevant. However, as this article explains, when this low level of needs remains unmet, when the majority of your population consider themselves ignored, poor and treated like dirt, you either end up with change, or revolution.
What he says without saying it is that neoliberal thinking always leads to fascism as we’re seeing in the Israel/Palestine conflict and that the Chinese project is a bastardisation of what it says it is fueled by the threat of the neoliberal West. This and his causation for it overlaps for 85-90% with (neo-)Marxism.
A perfect example of the woke law of projection. Populist movements like Trump supporters that supported the America First Agenda didn’t destroy liberal democracy. America is a constitutional republic with democratic processes, not a liberal democracy.. The America First Agenda was a movement of the middle class that rejected the pluralistic view and encroachment and threat posed by the United Nations culturally (UNESCO) and financially. The United Nations states that pluralism is In its DNA, evidenced by its charter language “We the peoples” of the United Nations. Pluralists aligned to the socialist, utopian dream called the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals are what is systematically destroying America. With the election of Biden, the UN has absolute control of all institutions, media propaganda, education, government and so on. The only political group that challenges its authority over the US was the America First agenda. Although, parents in America apoearbto be a threat to the UN’s vision of the perfect pluralistic society do to rejecting to their children being indoctrinated through UNESCO driven educational goals. Populism as a theory was realized by Harold J. Latski, a socialist and member of the British Labor party who later turned to marxism during the 1930s. He worked at Harvard and other Universities, attacking capitalism as failing to materialize below the middle class. Not all Americans are stupid, although most are brainwashed, uneducated, unread and have mo understanding of history, but i am not pne of those Americans.
As for labour dealing with stikes I’d still say that heck of a lot of cost of living crisis would get assessed by availability of affordable housing. If a person now pays 800 quid rent for their studio If you can instead offer them a flat for 600 that puts an extra 200 in their pocket, even without givimg them a penny of pay rise. So this is what i think they should crack on with, immidiately.
the gridlock is already here, in the US. The Republicans are no longer a functional party with a legislative agenda. They are insurrectionists whose stated mission is to prevent the govt and democracy itself from anything like basic functional operation. If they bring the country to its knees, they wade in, grab the spoils and divide them among their cronies. And leave the actual function of govt to completely disempowered agencies. Who will fail. They don’t care.
It’s true that Putin prefered a Russian realm that also included Ukraine, however he would have prefered it without war, war was not his first choice which is proven by hard evidence: the number of the Russian invasion army of 190,000 at the beginning which clearly isn’t enough for occupying a vast country like Ukraine. For comparison, the invading force Germany sent to conquer Poland in WW2 was 1.5 million and that was only for the Western part of Poland. So Putin used the invasion, termed ‘special military operation’ as a tool of pressure to force Ukraine to the negotiation table and was willing to broker a peace agreement before Boris flew in and strong-armed Zelensky into trashing the possibility of any kind of peace deal. Retrospectively it would have been better for Ukraine to accept that deal and swallow the bitter pill of losing Crimea and maybe the de facto independance of the Donbass region under some kind of autonomy than all the bloodshed and devastation that followed while ending up basically at the same place. But now the dice is cast, the Russian war machine is amped up, switching into a higher gear and winter is coming, while Western patience and money is running out. Shouldn’t have believed in the syren voices offering EU and NATO membership, the propaganda machine painting a picture of Ukraine capable of defeating Russia and the Western miracle weapons, they were always fairy tales. But now it’s too late. The next act will be a tragicomedy of rats fleeing the sinking ship, expect something along the lines of Afghanistan after the US troops left.
Except it hasnt. In the UK for example, the majority still vote for left or centre left parties. The only reason the tories do so well is because they do deals with the right wing vote so they come out on top in the first past the post system. If labour could unify more left votes, it wouldnt be in question.
Why only two possible outcomes of the 2003 Iraq invasion? The real tragedy is how some important powers who profess Liberal Democratic principles only talk the talk but don’t walk the walk (like they say in America). On the invasion of Ukraine: did John Gray really read Putin’s speech? Walter Russel Mead said that when the US called home their diplomatic staff, recomended other countries to do the same and offered Zelensky a transport out of Ukraine what they ended up messaging to Putin is that they were OK with the invasion and that they believed it would end quickly. Russel Mead called it a tremendous incompetence. Call me a cynic but I believe it was incompetence – or just miscommunication – when they lead Saddam to understand the US was ok with the invasion of Kwait but this time it may have been part of a plan. The evidence is, as reported by Anne Applebaum, Boris Johnson visit to Ukraine and the “suggestion” to Zelensky that he should exit the ongoing negotiations with Russia. Anne Applebaum reported that! The messaging wasn’t incompetence – it was (imho) a plan. The fact they did not think beyond that is sheer incompetence. Now, guess what: The US accuses (corfrectly, btw) Putin of breaking international law and at the same time supports Israel who has been breaking the exactly same law since 1967. Did you know the continuous use of some types of stimulant drugs – even small doses – causes an increased level of Psychopathic tendencies in humans? Did you know there is physical evidence pointing towards the use one of those stimulant drugs by important political bodies?
to summarise: abandoning those on both the left and the right through policy/corruption and then telling the abandoned that they are infact bigoted and must think and speak another way equals populism.! Sounds like something Jordan Peterson or Russel Brand would say…this guy has his head screwed on. Interesting that he predicted Brexit and trump!? I remember being shocked and appalled…not anymore
I love that as soon as he says the words “neo liberal economic policies” and “market liberalization” oops over out of time. From the deep red hinterlands of Richistan, formerly known as the United States, I can safely say it is stupidity. Because in the game of chicken vs egg the desperation is built upon the stupidity. Generations of it. addled like addicts might be a more accurate description. Mesmerized by a subjective reality TV gameshow infomercial thats sold as political theater and sports spectacular. A combination of mass psychosis and daily manufactured moral panics and hysteria. An inability to separate tabloid fantasies from news snd information. Constructing a reward system that operates like a pyrimid scheme based on the most currupt and deceitful ideologies while maintaining a level of denial that must be unsurpassed in the history of the world. America has a system that would be the envy of some of the greatest tyrants in history. Nobody, especially us, can see it for what it is. I lean towards the idea of continuing and complete dysfuction but also believe it will only be an outward facing facade for something darker and more insidious. The fact that we even have to talk about Trump should be testimony to the hollowing out of American institutions and democracy. Not the start of it. The culmination of decades of it.
How liberal can one be. Our Western freedom is slowly being eroded, people are thinking men can become women and vica versa, you are thought of as mad if you work 50+ hrs a week, we pay many times the face value of our houses, giving many times it’s value to the banks so that bankers can earn a living off of our backs. The great re-set is going to happen and we have done nothing to prevent it. Indeed we are paying via tax for our own destruction.
Very insightful (if a little boastful). I would recommend you take a look at my book published in 2022 by Polity RECLAIMING POPULISM: HOW ECONOMIC FAIRNESS CAN WIN BACK DISENCHANTED VOTERS where many of the excellent points made by John are reflected. One big difference is his assessment of support for Corbyn’s redistributive policies. We demonstrate that was one of the reasons that he was thrashed. Please note the quote from Guardian Jonathan Freedland that we cite on page 87-88. Despite this an outstanding listen.
I don’t agree with him, but he is certainly knowledgeable. Whats the state of nature? Most people collaborate first and compete or enter conflict only if their initial attempt at cooperation is unrequited. The core problem is greed driven by a system that espouses a store of value outside humans and our environment, money. Not going to get rid of that anytime soon, but to think the natural order of human life is ‘nasty brutish and short’ is one surefire way to ensure misery for all concerned as it just engenders suspicion and aggression.
Generally a long meandering journey on one’s own opinion with zero challenge or rebuttal by the interviewer. One of the few points agreed with is the fact Brexit voters we’re not racist, they were in my experience totally clueless as to what they voted for or against, and were generally quite xenophobic.
Haven’t intellectuals been predicting the collapse of Democracy (when they even allowed democracy existed) since the 1780s? 0:07 He’s a Brit. Haven’t the majority of British intellectuals been hostile to anything that could be called “democracy” since the English Civil Wars? 3:30 I hope there’s a distinction made between the American definition of Liberal Democracy (respect for individual human rights) and European Liberalism (focus on free markets at the expense of Society). 9:08 Like a broken clock, Margaret Thatcher was occasionally correct and completely useless. 12:10 Jim Crow was enforced by local governments and pulled down by the power of the Federal Government pushed by the demands of ordinary people. This gives Americans a different outlook. 19:41 Eastern European nations demanded to be let into NATO and the EU because of their fear of Russia. The oppressions these people experienced motivated their drive to join the West. 22:05 Now you seem to suggest that these same people should be sacrificed to Russian greed. Is your sense of propriety worth the enslavement of millions? 23:43 Trump is not all that likely to win. The swing voters have consistently come out to vote against him. 24:37 Trump, like Putin and you is done with democracy. That’s why the swing voters won’t vote for Trump. 26:02 The Ukrainians know they can’t stop until Putin is humiliated by losing all Ukrainian land. 27:16 European intellectuals always dreaming of the destruction of America. What happens if America keeps surviving?
Liberal Democracy is a posh word for totalitarianism – where the ‘Liberal’ elite educated class believe their opinons are the ones that matter and the rest of society is wrong for wanting different – while populism listens to what people want. Dont like populism, then try listening instead of preaching.
As an anarchist, its incredibly irritating to keep hearing the collapse of states referred to as anarchy, particularly from a political philosopher who namechecks it at the start when he recaps alternative political models. An anarchist state is one in which power is evenly distributed and hierarchy is abolished- similar to communism without the dictatorship. What he’s referring to is more a pre-state situation in which power-hungry groups compete for control – anarchism as a philosophy is engaged with attempting to prevent such struggles ever arising.
Western Coded Capital (neoliberalism/neocon) is generally the cause of Western ills. “Drink deep or taste, not the Western spring.” Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge may not have come to power had there not been the insane bombing of Cambodia and Laos during the Vietnam War. I think of the book “A Problem From Hell.” We can not punch our way out of our delusions.
Democracy WITHOUT leaders is coming, old fossils cling to the past, have no idea what is happening, and a social juggernaut of progress, & change Is going to sweep the old ways away. Science and Technology drives change in society, and the internet was the tipping point, We The 8.1 Biilion People of Earth can see and talk to each other, we are one people, one world. There has been more changes in the last twenty years than in the entire history of humanity, and it’s getting to Line Goes Up levels, next 10 years will see even more than ever before. The Juggernaut is growing ever bigger, and accelerating ever faster, a widening gap between old fossils, and younger minds, 5 yr, 2Yr, 6 months, 2 months, the time of leaders is ending fast.
Not particularly impressed with this guy. He has reached conclusions based upon several bad assumptions. Key among them is the notion that bigger government is in some way, in any way a solution to the tremendous damage that globalists have done to financial markets and major currencies. In the drive for continuous growth (a fallacy), the globalists convinced the political leadership of all major economies, that aggressive and innovative monetary policy could eliminate downturns and increase mutual prosperity – indefinitely. The result has been massive inflation and tremendous inequalities with respect to wealth creation. The result was a hollowing out of industrial powers in favor of commoditization and consumerism. Good jobs were exported in a relentless drive for profits. Communities were devastated. Government created that problem by creating all the incentives which lead to this social catastrophe. What is needed is a radical diminishment of centralized power. Consolidation of power, governmental and bureaucratic power is the problem. In Europe as well as America and Canada, federal governments need to be aggressively and permanently reduced in size and power. The result will be the unleashing of human potential. At the present we are teetering on the edge of the abyss. If the immense stupidity and arrogance of monetarists succeeds in destroying the dollar, they will with it bring an end to the American Empire. That will create a new era of brutality, war and economic chaos unknown to humanity for centuries.
In less academic terms, the cause of the rise of populism is indeed a disaffected and neglected middle class that has been squeezed and hollowed out in the UK and USA. Dr. Gray appears to lean in the direction of inevitability – and doesn’t make a distinction between the rise of populists in the USA and the UK and those in Europe (almost exclusively linked to foreign migration). Some discussion would have also been interesting to hear on the push-back we’re starting to see from the Democrats in America to reanimate the middle class.
Forget the Democrats/Republicans…they are now destroying the USA with childish mutual destruction ! Bring in RFK Jr…..running now as Democrat….wants to Heal The Great Divide, reel in MIC, Revive the Middle class, inhibit Corporate Capture of Congress & Regulatory Agencies…et al ! RFK Jr. POTUS 2024 !
Typical pro-oligarchy fanboy propaganda. Anyone who invokes Hobbes means to rationalize a firm hierarchical conservative society. Nothing new here people. 🥱 Liberalism is no more “finished” now than when the cynical wealthy ruling class paired up with the fascists in the early 20th century. Like back then, the working class must choose class solidarity and social democracy and must resist the cynical efforts of the wealthy to divide us from our fellow wage earning working people with racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia (and other similar hatred’s) as well as pseudo-scientific eugenic-like theories of “social or genetic hygiene”. “Conservative” populism is not new. The fascists and the Nazis tried to undermine working class solidarity and maintain a traditional rigid oligarchic hierarchy in the early 20th century using the same divisive tricks. Don’t let it happen again in the 21st century. Hold the wealthy accountable and refuse to be divided from your neighbors and fellow working class citizens!
Basically he’s saying populism defeats liberalism cause people don’t understand that the word “they” is not just plural. And don’t understand social constructs. That’s not populism, it’s a backlash to woke society due to faiures in the education system. Populism is creating fear among every day people and claiming to have the solution to their fears… ie spreading false ideas about white people being replaced by ethnic minorities and having a solution to it. The irony is that people like Donald Trump don’t actually believe the bat shit ideas they promote to get power. Populism is just self serving lies dished out to the public.
While disparaging Trump and with concerns expressed about what possible chaos might happen should he be re-elected, Gray has conveniently forgotten that it is Biden and his Democrat government who pulled out of Afghanistan, leaving weapons to arm enemy and US soldiers to be tortured and murdered. It was Biden, not Trump who wanted to keep the country masjed and shut down, devastating the economy and small business. It is Biden, not Trump that has mismanaged Ukraine and will inevitably drag the US into WWIII while backing Israel. It is Biden’s woke Democrats, not conservative Republicans who are wreaking havoc in society whenever they don’t get their way. I won’t bother to poke holes in Gray’s exlanation for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine other than to say it calls into question everything else he expresses with such confidence.
If the US would just do a tenth of what we could in support of Ukraine, instead of capitulating to nuclear blackmail, full Ukrainian sovereignty over all its territory would be restored. It would still be a hard fight, but there would be no doubt of the outcome. It’s premature to call next November’s election when (at the time of filming) this November hadn’t even begun.
0:07 For the record, “the devil” as an excuse for the ills of society is a page from the Christian conservatives’ playbook more than the liberals.’ In fact, said conservatives love to label the other side as, “of the devil,” “godless,” and “Satanic,” among other choice bon mots. In short, they view liberals as a great evil and the main cause of everyone’s misery. But your point is taken, sir.
In Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher’s era liberal democracy dead and exchanges in to so called Neoliberal democracy And mullahs was share with them She was neo conservative She just has a sexy voice But she was relentless lady And Ronald Reagan was just a cowboy he was not a political man So they made chaotic in the world and their legacy were George w bush killer and tony Beler money lover’s They made more worse and destructive in the world
It is a sad fact that the UK ma have to re colonize after such an unfavorable Brexit . If the Nationalist Free Market agenda is continued, then that will require a need to increased militarization for overseas conflicts, countries like Guyana may have to be supported and population movements re directed to building up that economy, as the UK itself will be unable to sustain and feed the increased population and maintain the low tax economy that he Tory heartland wants . The sham of trickle down economics is nothing more than a con to create an off shore island tax evasion economy for plutocratic minded people who have no interest in upholding any standards of social security, only profit driven greed. Liberal tolerance and rejection of socialism by even the New Labour elites make for a grim future.
John Gray is always worth listenting but I don’t understand his comments at the end about the young in France supporting Le Pen and the Rassemblement National. Well more than twice as many 18-24 year olds voted for the left-wing NUPES coalition as for the Rassemblement National in the Legislative Elections last year. Gray is not the first British commentator to repeat this idea of French youth being atrracted to the far right and I’m not quite sure where they are getting their information.
The west needs to adopt the Swiss system Referendums for just about everything on all levels local regional and nationally The Swiss get it right with the people deciding and we would solve all these problems with the same system . The leaders of today are incapable of doing the public justice. It baffles me only the Swiss have adopted true democracy and by the way they are the richest per capital country in the world. A great example of what the people can do if allowed to decide by referendum.
Gray needs a heavy weight to interview him. Bastani did a good job. Foundation of Eurocentric thought, everything it seems needs a label . IMHO the entire world going ‘ right’? You have approximately 20-30 percent of people in your midst who miss the good old days … for the last three decades they have been organising behind the scenes … this is their decade. 😮 However they know the arc of the universe bends towards fairness😊
No! Migration is the most important single cause of the Right Wing rise. Of course there isn’t one cause, but other causes such as all alleged “deindustrialization” have been debunked.This has happened in high employment societies. Next, extreme inequality and wage theft—in the US wages stagnated while earnings went up. Surplus labor theft was so high until Obama minimum wage increases. they were at 1969 levels.
I think the problem is there is a massive political meme and media machine system behind the far right thats engineering mindsets. just look at the rumor that schools had litterboxes for kids that identified as cats. really, we’re giving up democracy for a ridiculous story like that? Personally when I see stuff like that where I detect systemic deceit makes makes me completely suspicious of the GOP.
‘Russian barbarism’, uhm, what does he mean by that? As opposed to Western barbarism killing a million children in Iraq, which was ‘worth it’, according to Madeleine Albright? Russian barbarism, as opposed to Western barbarism, bombing civilians all over the world or supporting a genocidal apartheid state for 70 years?
9:03 – fun fact: the Herberts’ Dune series describes as its prequel a galaxy-spanning human society supported by robots and not longer having “big ideas”. Then a bunch of powermaniacs DO have a “big idea” to hack the robots and conquer everyone. Shortly after this the AI subjugates the warlords along wih everyone else. It is eventually defeated (“Butlerian Jihad”) and replaced by a theo-fanatical autocratic feudalism that lasts 10k yrs until the modern day of “Dune”, replaced by a theocracy for 30k yrs (“children”, “god emperor”)… Very cynical stuff. Sadly, the senior Herbert got so bad in his old age that I’ve not read further. 16:10 slightly squinting one eye shut, are we? Sarcasm: “yes, this quarter of the 21st is rife with examples how liberal democracies commit just as many anti-human atrocities as dictatorships.” Don’t make me laugh. The hobbsian fallacy is – in fact an interpretation of what the gentleman brings forth – the longer you have the god emperor, the longer you freeze the conflicts, the harder they come back. God emperor fixes nothing. Laws of nature guarantee that the emperorship shall fall, sooner or later. Better to duke out our shit today. The only hope is to train the majority of humans to be Reponsible. Adults. – in effect providing higher quality material (longer perspective) to the humans’ self-preservation calculus. The opposite of “let me die of old age before Russia and China come to kill/enslave all my kids.” I agree on that point – letting such people vote is a state suicide plan.
South Africa also went Liberal Democratic in the 1990’s partly due to the fall of the USSR Communist threat, Nelson Mandela was the darling of the world & new father of our multi-cultural, multi race country…and now in 2023 our State Owned Enterprizes have been managed into the ground & hollowed out of billions of wasted money (Kleptocracy). We replaced white on black Apartheid economics with black on white Apartheid economics…and just about the whole world demonstrated and sanctioned South Africa pre Democracy, yet they look on now to new injustices in silence. Yes we have just narrowly won the Rugby World Cup in Paris, we are in ecstasy as a united nation of all races, but come 2024, we are faced with some very real challenges. Still I ❤ 🇿🇦🇿🇦🇿🇦, but I do worry about our economic & other policies, always over shadowed by racial justice, misguided Marxist ideology…yet hardly ever successful, as it almost always has some new form of reversed racial discrimination.
…ok… so shouting into the void a little, I’d say Hobbes is quite scary, not something we should be promoting unless in an academic setting within a much broader philosophical primer. You can’t talk Hobbes without talking Locke at the same time, we group both together for a reason. Both use the ‘State of Nature’ as an analytical philosophical tool (Eden in effect) to explain why a population of individuals would choose to build a society (a social contract not to kill one another in effect… simplistically). Both have almost opposing views on what the ‘State of Nature’ actually is, and in fairness neither was fully correct in their assertion, the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Hobbes philosophy leans toward the conservative view of what (they call) a ‘liberal’ society should look like, i.e. that fear is a component of bringing it into being. Hobbes failure is that he attempts to build an almost mechanistic ‘science’ of society as justification for the ideas he wants to impose (and so falls into exactly the same trap as authors such as Kant later). In order to justify his ideas, he imposes a wilfully simplistic foundation, ‘all people move away from pain, and toward pleasure’ to build from (which can be true, but is not universal as he asserts), and this eventually leads him to a principle that ‘all people seek power to maximise their pleasure’, which is the polar opposite of Locke where it is the ‘Restraint of Power’ (and the abuses that it can be used to impose) that form the fundamental component of his philosophy.
I wonder if John Gray has been accepting the briefings on the Ukraine conflict on western media and our MOD which has gotten its information from Ukraine MOD? He has made no mention about the Bio-war labs that exist on the Russian- Ukraine border. I wonder too if he is unaware of what has been going on there. Putin never declared war. Russian action has been a Special Operation. Reality can be far different from what you read.
A very interesting interview, but there are a lot of flawed points he cites as asides: 1. Corbyn did not turn a blind eye to the allegations of antisemitism in Labour, once in charge of PLP he made sure they were investigated and none of the complaints have been upheld. #ItWasAScam 2. Also he was right to question the Skripal case being blamed on Russia, look at the details and it becomes ridiculous to believe it was a Russian operation. 3. NATO expansion is more than a “theory” it’s a substantial reason for Russia’s invasion, as well as their arming and training of Ukrainian Nazis and the 14,000 killed in the Donbass from the war that started 8 years before the invasion. 4. The Putin child kidnap narrative is based on a report funded by a CIA cutout and put together in Yale by people who never went to Russia, make of that what you will. 5. Zelensky is not “heroic” he is the oligarch’s oligarch, selling off his country to the highest bidders i.e. Blackrock. 6. The idea that western foreign interventions were genuinely humanitarian is laughable, take the WMD lie about Iraq and the one about Libyan soldiers on viagra. Neither Iraq nor Libya were humanitarian interventions, they were about accessing the countries’ resources. Gray is very insightful but seems to take for granted a lot of western CIA/MI6 talking points, he should probably spend less time in Washington and read less MSM. Jeffrey Sachs has a better, well-informed perspective on global geopolitics.
Actually the populists defeated nobody! The liberal democrats defeated themselves by moving towards socialism and attempting to subvert democracy and the mechanisms that are essential for a democracy to work! Liberal “democrats” are trying to destroy freedom of speech and replace it with heavy censorship. They want also to subvert national self determination by forcing national governments to follow rules dictated by an un-elected outside entity. The UN is one and the EU is another, there are also several NGO*s that want to dictate policy like the WEF, Greenpeace, Amnesty and many others. Liberal “democrats” have shown that they despise the people and what the people want and need.
Gray completely whitewashes Western policies regarding the Ukraine crisis. No mention of the 2014 coup, the militarisation of Ukraine by NATO following that coup, and two decades of NATO expansion along Russia’s borders. This amounts to an historically illiterate distortion of reality and should not be taken seriously.
Interesting story, but I’m flabbergasted that it completely disregards the role of media, disrupted by internet and www, allowing exploitative business models by the likes of powerful neo-aristocrats like Murdoch that don’t care about the need for building a collective ‘truth’ that makes sense. The worst neoliberals are both the cause of loss of trust in elites, as the ones who exploit it through rhetoric that is just out for power, not seeking truth. In such an environment Blair and Starmer can have a chance, while Corbyn is pushed out. They play the game with the rules forced onto them by the media.
It was NATO expansion that was the red line. No US nuclear misiles in Ukraina. Ukraine and Russia had a sign peace deal on the table March 31st, that was stopped by USA and NATO, so 500.000 young Ukrainan men had to die for the US empire and their effort to weaken Russia military and economy so a palace coup would happen och the US oligarchy could steal all Russias natural resources. They fail big time and Russias victory of USA and NATO and Ukraine is the nail in the coffin of US hegemony and the beginning of new world. The US coup in Ukraine is not even mention and the nazi governments attack on people i Donbass, 15000 killed. It is upsetting that an English professor doesn’t know the basics of the conflict. Just check with John Mearsheimer or Jeffery Sachs all on YouTube.